O/T Bowling for Columbine

[Müřlıń®]

quote:

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but I just have to say that I think it's interesting/funny/scary that this thread has morphed into a 'mine's bigger' love fest for guns.

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Heh I agree.......

 

The topic of Columbine kinda fizzled out....

 

Did tne NRA just hold a meeting here too???

 

I totally support the right to bear arms.

 

But I find the things in the movie quite disturbing. Somitimes I guess it's easier to avoid the scary topics that hit too close to home.

 

 

Murlin

[KJS]

Mark Lovelace, We probaly disagree about most everything politacally but I'd like to see you at a gun range. People I've met in the past that didn't believe in owning guns all seemed to have a change of heart after they fired one. My wife had never even seen a real handgun before we met and she was very leary of them. I took her to the range and let her shoot in a safe and controlled enviroment and she loved it. Shooting is a great sport when done with common sense and respect. The thrill of hitting a tough target is awesome. If you miss you know it was all your fault. So the best part of it is the challenge knowing it's all up to you.

[Rekd™]

quote:

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If you miss you know it was all your fault

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BS!!! THAT GUN IS NOT SIGHTED IN PROPERLY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

j/k

 

Seriously, good point. I haven't met a person yet that has fired a gun in a controlled environment that hasn't enjoyed it.

 

 

:edit:

quote:

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I'm at the opposite end of the shooting range from most of you here,

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Um, Mark.. You do realize that that's where the targets are, don't you? Could you please come back to this side of the firing line so we can continute shooting??

:/edit:

 

'Rekd

 

[ 08-24-2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Thad]

chris m,

 

+1 to your whole post...well, almost all of it. "Us army guys" qualified shooting targets up to 300 meters. Maybe things have changed throughout the years.

 

We share the opinion that M16s suck when it comes to reliability. They are pretty accurate. I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement.

 

 

quote:

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I always liked looking into the receiver and seeing about three rounds all wedged into each other.

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Now that is just plain classic! You just brought back some memories. How about lying in the prone position as a coach and getting hit with hot brass from the shooter?

 

Thad

[Thad]

I'm not a gun owner but I must admit that shooting various weapons was one of the biggest highlights of my time in the army. Although firing a machine gun on fully automatic (until the barrel was glowing orange) was a good time, the biggest thrill was throwing a live grenade. It's not like you see on TV. Those M-Fers make one hell of a BOOM!

 

Thad

[Jack Mitchell]

Philcott,

 

Sorry for the error on my previous post. Windsor which is Detroit’s twin city had two gun related deaths last year – a non Canadian was involved according to the documentary.

 

As per the Bowling documentary:

“How many people are killed by guns each year?”

Germany 381

France 255

Canada 165

United Kingdom 68

Australia 65

Japan 39

USA 11127

 

I recall that Toronto (Major City in Canada) had 51 murders last year, as I am also sure a good portion of the victims were likely shot; actually it is about this time of year that CNN reports which city’s are over 500 murders in the US – I am not trying to be smart or morbid, just stating how serious such has become.

 

Regarding statistics; the person you researched is paid to say that there are 1000 gun related deaths in Canada each year. The only official authorities that can release the true numbers are the police departments throughout the country (It is a crime here for a Doctor or a Surgeon to treat without reporting). – The police are not required to report this to a federal regulatory body – I could well be wrong with this perception. I can only question where Moore recieved his data.

 

I liked the reference to Clint in Unforgiven (He’s the exact character that I view as James in the Starfleet series). Another extreme favorite is the kid in All the Pretty Horses that said “cause I’m an American” – assuming that Matt Daemon cauterized his wounds with a red hot knife, I might consider 11126 -kidding.

 

Saving Private Ryan viewed in a theater was a very realistic experience – especially the beach head, the up & down water in your hears, the 50 Cal massacre, etc!

Black Hawk Down was amazing as well until I viewed the credits at the ending which echoed the kill ratio – that just left me numb.

 

One thing I could identify with in Bowling was the sound of a shotgun being cocked- you know this sound (shick shick). In a dark alley, in a convenience store, in a restaurant – anywhere, sight unseen, that sound is impending death without even seeing the weapon.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 08-25-2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[Mark Lovelace]

Rek'd, thanks for lookin' out for me.

 

KJS, actually, I have fired guns before, and was told I was pretty good for a complete novice. I have no problem with people owning and using guns for sport. I just wonder what size/type/quantity of guns crosses the line?

 

Jack, you left off a digit for the USA. The number was eleven-thousand something. We're number one! We're number one!

[skeetboy25]

wow, one of my favorite topics...

 

first shot was at the age of 6 with a .410 shot gun, litterally threw me on my @$$. Shot competitive archery through out elementary and JH, joined the NRA at the age of 12, got my first powder acctuated beauty (ruger 10-22) at 11. called into the principals office in eith grade the day after columbine. shot running target at 13, at the olympic training center at 14. started doing all of the family gun smthing (repair and alteration) around fourteen (and I have a very extended southern family) Quit running target, got into trap, started fabing my own parts for several antiqe projects (which I still blame for my current facination with precicion manufacturing). At 15 bought some second hand reloading equipment and started selling shot shells and hand gun round out of my attic. At 17 had to prematurly kill said venture after a friend noted a few leaal issues... still shoot trap, still build guns, still do my own custom work. am slowly approaching the mark where i will have either onwned, shot, worked on, or handled every every rod created by contemporary man.

 

Never have shot anyone, never have had to, never have seen a flag burned at a gun show.

[skeetboy25]

as to what we should be allowed to own...

 

the most popular cartrige for assasinations is the 22 LR, FBI statistic

 

To my knowlege there has never been a murder with a .50 BMG

 

Klashnikov type muzzle breaks acctually are very usefull for target shooting.

 

Gas suppressors [silencers to leftist types] acctually improve accuracy at short [<50 yrds] ranges.

 

a fully automatic STEN sub-machine gun can be made for about $45 bucks and in about two hours by a skilled machinist [less for us 4x cnc guys]

 

a sporterized semi-automatic avatomat klashnikov [ak-47] would put me out over $600

 

an ar-15 [civilian m-16] would be about $1200

 

a 223 rem will reduce a prarie dog to a red streak in the grass...

 

as will any lawn mower.

 

my 70lb compound bow penetrates farther into a sand pile than a .44 special will

 

the .44 special splits a maple bowling pin in half.*

 

a bowling ball striking a pin has a greater impact energy than most hand gun cartriges.

 

my .270 win will reduce said bowling ball to pea sized chuncks.

 

....so what is too much? [or to little?].

personaly I think that class II, class III, FFL's, and twenty percent green taxes are total bs, but thats just my oppinion.

 

*Bowling with rifles is the epitome of good clean fun.

[Wally]

Goodmorning all, how was the weekend? "Where is the Limit". I`m not sure there should be one, for non-criminals But, one thing, I think the cop`s should have the latest and greatest. It`s pretty scary when they run up against more power than they have. I really don`t care for cop`s but they do maintain the infrustructure, that we need.

I shot a homemade 25MM rifle this weekend. WOW. An 18 pound barrel and 3 gas shocks in the stock. A definet bench gun.

[Müřlıń®]

If the numbers that Moore uses in his flick are true, I have to ask the same question that he does.

 

What makes us have more gun related murders than anyone else?

 

The numbers that are used are for deaths by guns.

I wonder what the numbers are for murders committed by other means?

 

 

Murlin

[Wally]

Why more in this country? Maybe because we are free`er than any other country. The uneducated feel no restrictions and the educated, feel they are smart enough to slip the system, they are innocent until proven guilty. It`s not the weapon. The one behind it.

[Jack Mitchell]

Mark,

 

I corrected the digit you pointed out (11127 not 1127 as quoted).

 

Here’s the scary part:

I believe there has been somewhere around 200 American soldiers killed since May30th in Iraq. Keep in mind that many of these deaths were caused by explosions and other means and not specifically by gun fire. Yes the US troops have the finest of training and equipment for they are undoubtedly the world’s finest army.

Comparatively speaking, if Moore’s data is even remotely close, then there has been roughly 2800 gun related deaths during the same amount of time on the very streets of America.

 

A second point could well be scoffed at but here goes:

My guess is that in many remote areas of the country that there are special interest groups as equally armed as the US army. IE; Waco, but this info could well be a spin since the government is so very effective at rearranging truth and facts.

 

Please do not take this argument out of context – I am not attacking Americans, governments, or anybody else in the forum. There is something wrong when our daily living loss exceeds the casualty of war by a ten to one ratio (this only considers the American loss of life).

 

If living in America at present my arsenal would include a huge quantity of C4 and lots of ball bearings, lots of Rpg’s and the Ak47 for the up-close encounters, since it is the chosen standard in harsh climate as per the many responses in this thread.

 

You see, there are but two differing scenarios:

One is that you would have to defend a direct attack at your house or on your family by somebody armed, perhaps a neighbor or a thief/rapist/who knows?

Second, an army attacks your country and neighborhood – this becomes, as always, an urban or gorilla situation. (I would think that most defenders would opt for similar equipment as mine given the second alternative).

 

Do you see what I am trying to say here?

Guns, to me, are not good unless used for solely hunting purposes. Automatic weapons and large caliber equipment, in my opinion, should not become available to the general public, let alone teenagers – is this not really what Bowling for Columbine was really all about?

Granted, Moore sort of tricked Heston to gain access to an interview and meticulously worked him until he finally walked away - then the implied humiliation of looking back at the picture of the six year old child victim. I do not necessarily like the means used to bring his point across and yet I am sort of glad that he did, otherwise I could not appreciate just how terrible the gun control situation really is.

 

By all means disagree with my thoughts and views on this sensitive subject, for this debate is very important to all of us. Or, alternately, beat on me for being loose cannon for I am not playing the devils advocate here. Yes, there is a fine line to consider when arming one’s self, and yes, there are many other things that might explain why so many people are killed by guns today.

 

I don’t have any answers, all I have are questions.

 

Sorry for the rant

 

Regards, Jack

[A-ron1286490684]

How many people were killed in the US by knives? Where would that idiot Michael Moore be if he didn’t have a steak knife to cut meat and stuff his jowly, misinformed, socialist spout? How many alcohol related deaths were there in the US last year, or Canada for that matter? Maybe we should only be allowed to drink alcohol in a government-supervised facility with the strictest controls. And shouldn’t we all register our knife blocks? How many auto related deaths were there last year in the US. Seems to me I could get better results by driving my truck down a farmer’s market sidewalk. Then I could just play dumb afterwards or I could just say I fell asleep. I might be out in ten years time and be right back behind the wheel.

 

I’m always amazed when these discussions gravitate away from personal responsibility. If anybody really wanted to bring an informed opinion to the table, a quick perusal of the statistics regarding the US cities where guns have been banned already would be a start. You leave honest citizens unarmed while criminals are more brazen than ever.

 

We have all these procedures in place for registering guns and tracking their sale but we don’t enforce the gun laws when they are broken. Usually the victims are conspicuously absent during the trial leaving some slimy defense attorney left to appeal to the jury’s “better judgment” blaming social surroundings, social economic disadvantages, or the gun manufacturers themselves. Like the idiotic conclusions drawn in Michael Moore’s first book "Stupid White Men". When you don’t want to take responsibility for your actions just blame it on someone else.

 

BTW, I live about a mile from where that piece of feces invaded a home, beat the mother and son, and kidnapped the 11 year old girl and kept her in a box all weekend. If it were my house -the guy would look just like the Hussein brothers right now 'cept a few more worms.

 

EDIT: The subject of removing the last line of my personal defense got me fired up. I'll tone it down.

 

[ 08-25-2003, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: A-ron ]

[Mark Lovelace]

A-ron,

 

I believe in personal responsibility just as strongly as you do, but that still doesn't address the question of why there are so many more gun deaths in the US than any other first-world country. Are Canadians, Brits, Japanese, Russians, Germans, French, Australians, and others just more responsible than Americans? If so, then why? And more importantly, what can we do to change that? I haven't seen anyone here say that the answer is to take away people's guns, and I don't recall there being any such suggestion in Bowling for Columbine, either.

 

I believe that personal responsibility needs to be countered by corporate responsibility. It is disengeniuous for Hollywood to glorify violence, and then deny any responsibility for an out-of-control murder rate. Similarly, it is equally ludicrous for gun makers who make guns whose sole purpose is to kill humans to share no responsibility when those weapons are used for their intended purpose. Are these companies solely responsible? Of course not. But we will never get anywhere on this issue until all of the responsible parties recognize their own complicity.

 

Personal responsibility shouldn't stop when you put on a suit.

 

BTW; I haven't heard of any cities in the US banning guns.

 

[ 08-25-2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Mark Lovelace ]

[Harryman]

quote:

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BTW; I haven't heard of any cities in the US banning guns.

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Check Morton Grove, IL. I'm pretty sure that's the town that banned handguns back in the early eighties. Anyone know how it worked out there?

[Rekd™]

There's a little city on the east coast, um, New York I believe it's called.. Only peolpe that have guns there are the criminals and cops... :/ We all know how the crime rate is there.

 

Then there's a place called Arizona that allow you to walk into a bank packin', so long as it's visible. How's the crime rate there, you ask? VERY low I respond.

 

If you knew I had a gun on me, would you rob me? Would you try to rape my wife if she was packing? I seriously doubt it.

 

'Rekd

 

[ 08-25-2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[A-ron1286490684]

Mark, I'm pretty sure DC and New York city are both places they've banned hand guns and the crime rate actually went up...

[iowajim62]

quote:

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BTW; I haven't heard of any cities in the US banning guns.

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Here's a link for all to read.

 

http://user.mc.net/~chevelle/handgunbans.htm

[Slixmix]

I just got one of these over the weekend. Lookout Rekd

[Rekd™]

OK, Franco, you're on!

 

I have the mother load of water-pistols, water-rifles, H2O fire extinguishers, and 3 man water-baloon launchers!

 

Look out, Chippawah Campers, here comes Mrs. Rekd with those damn water baloons again!!

[Harryman]

quote:

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3 man water-baloon launchers!

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Two's enough if Jammer is on the team.

 

Keep the head down there pal!

[Mark Lovelace]

Jim, thanks for the link. I hadn't been aware that any cities had banned sale or possession of handguns altogether. However, I do have to point out that none of the cities listed had actually "banned guns", as A-ron had stated. Banning the sale of unregistered handguns, as in DC, is substantially different. NYC isn't on the list. It surprises me that the court determined that the second ammendment only applied to Congress, and not to local government.

 

I would like to find the source data for that guy's webpage, since many of his numbers conflict with each other. I also have to remain a little skeptical about someone's use of data when they apparently don't understand the term 'per-capita'.

[ScottyB]

That's it!! I'm picking up the family and moving to Rekd's block.

+1 on most everything said here. You've said it all.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL. If you ask me, this is the only gun law we need. And it also covers baseball bats, knives, forks and spoons for that matter.

 

If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

 

Thanks for the motivation everyone...This weekend I will show my wife and son how to shoot. (My wife asked me to just last night.)

 

I live in a very rural area and I had to pull my gun on a guy who walked into my house last winter. He was drunk and didn't know what he was doing (harmless). But as soon as I picked up my shotgun I was sure that the situation would end peacefully or in my favor. I liked those odds much better than using the phone and waiting 30 minutes for the cops. When the cops showed up they didn't question my actions one bit. God I love this country!!

 

ScottyB teh armed and dangerous!

[ScottyB]

That's it!! I'm picking up the family and moving to Rekd's block.

+1 on most everything said here. You've said it all.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL. If you ask me, this is the only gun law we need. And it also covers baseball bats, knives, forks and spoons for that matter.

 

If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

 

Thanks for the motivation everyone...This weekend I will show my wife and son how to shoot. (My wife asked me to just last night.)

 

I live in a very rural area and I had to pull my gun on a guy who walked into my house last winter. He was drunk and didn't know what he was doing (harmless). But as soon as I picked up my shotgun I was sure that the situation would end peacefully or in my favor. I liked those odds much better than using the phone and waiting 30 minutes for the cops. When the cops showed up they didn't question my actions one bit. God I love this country!!

 

ScottyB teh armed and dangerous!

 

[ 08-25-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: ScottyB ]