O/T Bowling for Columbine

[gcode]

I don't know if its true, but I've read that

statistically a young man is safer on duty in Iraq

than walking the streets of Washington DC or

South Central LA.

[Chris Rizzo]

Well, from the beginning I've been watching this one from the sidelines, yet have remained quite...

 

I'm sure my viewpoints might be rather "challenging" to believe, for I can somewhat reside in both camps.

 

-I'm a huge fan of Michael Moore (after all, he is a huge guy). His "over the top" stunts and presentation certainly stimulate the viewers brain. Like it or not, him exercising freedom of expression is more benign than me exercising the freedom to bear arms when I purchased my Glock .45.

 

- I'm a huge fan of guns. We have a .22 range set up here in the shop. I'm probably the only one in the forum who regularly finds .22 brass in my manual machines' t-slots, yet also opposes the NRA and thinks Heston is a buffoon.

 

- What's at work here is Darwinian. American gun laws in conjuction with American society make for a "civilized" county with the highest level of gun related murders. For whatever complex societal reasons guns+America= murder. If we value the right to bear arms more than the right to be safe from them, then so be it. Our society is running it's course of 11,??? murders a year. If we all want the right to defend our homes from invasion, then we must also be comfortable with the negative repercussions that our society brings with that...e.g. Columbine.

 

- "If everybody was packin', and everybody educated their children, and everybody took responsiblilty, etc. etc. etc." there would be no wrongful gun deaths. The fact of the matter is that when there are guns around, American people will use them on each other. Guns don't kill people...people kill people. So here in America we have chosen our guns over our people.

[Slixmix]

All the negativity needed some good news:

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...atoday/11685461

[mayday]

Just this weekend my 18 yr old son spent 2 days at a shooting competition. Shotgun, 22 rifle, compound bow, muzzle loader. For not hunting much he did quite well. His grandfather gave him his Rem. 870 Wingmaster for xmas last year. he never shot it till saturday. has a goose barrel on it for steel shot. He took 3rd in skeet. not bad for a goose barrel. won a nice Cabella jacket too. Just goes to show ya. Guns is here to stay. good to see today's youth taking interest in the sport.

[CR@seyer]

quote:

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guns+America= murder

---

Give me liberty or give me death.

 

I have an idea; lets try real prison sentences, in real prisons, for a real long time.

 

If we don’t have criminals running around in society then we shouldn’t have to worry about who buys a firearm do we?

 

My cousin was getting gas at a gas station; she went in to pay for the gas. A parolee who was “tired of waiting for the bus” got into her car and drove off. Her two year old was in the back seat. This was about 1993 or 94 and the car he stole was a less than mint 1978 mercury marquis. Luckily he didn’t make a turn into an alley a couple of blocks away and nosed the beast into a telephone pole and ditched the car, and the kid. No one was hurt and the little boy has had a chance to grow into a fine young man.

 

No gun involved in this crime but this illustrates the point that if this individual were still rotting away in jail he would not have been physically capable of committing this crime. He is due to get out soon if he hasn’t already. Does that give you a happy feeling? Wouldn’t you just as soon see individuals like this warehoused or otherwise disposed of permanently? Do I sound cold? Do I care?

 

What would have happened to that child if he hadn’t had a wreck in the car and abandoned it? Perhaps the parole bored should have thought about the damage that this degenerate could do if released into society. Perhaps they share the responsibility for his actions. It certainly makes more sense than holding the gun industry responsible for the inanimate objects that they produce. Perhaps the individuals that produced this vermin (i.e. parents) are also responsible. I did not make his choices for him, I didn’t teach him his morality. I should not bare the consequences for his misdeeds.

 

Michael More is Canadian, yet he comes here to make his millions, if only through criticism. The same freedom that gains him his wealth can, at times, put us in jeopardy, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I completely tune out any argument that compares this great nation to another. Germany? France? Australia? Canada? Lets compare freedom not crime rate, capitalism vs. socialism. If your not impressed, you might consider a change of address.

Clayton

[Bullines]

quote:

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Michael More is Canadian, yet he comes here to make his millions, if only through criticism.

---

Although it appears that he does like this great country of ours, he's from Flint, MI. Personally, I think Michigan's Upper Peninsula should've been part of Wisconsin. But the rest of Michigan should remain a state and not a province.

[Toolfab]

Hey Bullines, you keep us out of this!!!

 

 

lmao.....

[mayday]

quote:

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I think Michigan's Upper Peninsula should've been part of Wisconsin.

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scuze me, but da uppers is stayin with us

 

besides that we own 10 acres up there,dont wanna start paying Wisc. state taxes too

[Toolfab]

quote:

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dont wanna start paying Wisc. state taxes

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You said a mouth full there buddy!!!

[Bullines]

quote:

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scuze me, but da uppers is stayin with us

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Da Yoopers' "Rusty Chevrolet" playin' in the background...

[Chris Rizzo]

Whether you love or hate Michael Moore, ya'll should check out his film "Roger and Me" ...about the politics of General Motors chairman Roger Smith, and the dire economic situation in Flint, Michigan.

 

Anyone intrigued by the state of American manufacturing and how it relates to social issues would find this film interesting. Granted it's politically charged, but enlightening none-the-less.

[Karl@CP PISTONS]

For the truth about what this "documentary" was

see this site

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

It shows what Mr. Moore will do to twist your thoughts into what he wants you to think.

[Müřlıń®]

Thanks Karl for that link.

 

Looks like the total murder by guns were only around 8k per year instead of 11k.

 

And it looks like there the actual numbers for all the countries were a little higher.

 

Still seems like the count is still extremely higher in the US than other countries.

 

That was an interesting part about the Buell kid.

I knew it had to be something like that.

 

So many children in the US are being raised by TV, Nintendo, ect.....Their parents are just "out to lunch"....

 

Murlin

[crazy^millman]

Well here come my two cents worth and looks like I am a day late and a dollar short on this one but what they hell.

 

Then I thought better of it oh well.

 

crazy millman

[Hardmill]

+1 Crazy

 

PEACE

[Charles Davis]

Years ago I spent a few wonderful weeks in Cancun. When I came back to the US I could not believe how violent we were.

 

Even little things, like two brothers punching each other, or parents yelling or whacking their kids in the airport. Really, it shocked me.

 

We're a hard-charging, competitive, ambitious, aggessive culture. That manifests itself in great accomplishments. Sometimes the outlet is less constructive. It's really also a result of our freedom. People are to a large extent unbridled to be their best or thier worst.

 

Personally, I've walked in some of the worst areas of cities (Watts in LA, Washington DC), and never had any problem. I wonder how few of those murders were random, and how many were domestic violence or drug turf wars?

[Chris Rizzo]

quote:

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People are to a large extent unbridled to be their best or thier worst.

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That's exactly it...Our culture coupled with our freedom equates to unrivaled accomplishments, both good and bad. Being the sole superpower of the world comes hand in hand with also being the murder capital. Not that it's justifiable in any sense, but it's certainly not resolvable either. That's just what the equation is.

 

Whether it's Michael Moore selectively editing NRA sound bites, or Charlton Heston claiming entitlement to an amendment written over two centuries ago- each is living in their own interpretation of reality, and neither can deny that as long as we are American, we will own guns..and use them.

[crazy^millman]

Hey CMR what about the countries where the people are beign starved to death because the people who have power are keeping the food away from them. Would this not be murder. In places where they kill the frist born if it is a girl that we lose alot of our work to. The idea of this country was not to be perfect but to be inperfect so with that imprefection you get the good and the bad.

 

You seen bad people doing things I ask did you pay attention to the good going on also. There are bad places in everywhere but if all we focus on is the bad and not try to look for the good then are just helping the bad be more important than the good around it.

 

Just my two cents worth.

 

Crazy Millman

[Rekd™]

Lest we not forget that these numbers, when looked at on a 'per capita' basis will be very different than 'who has the most deaths'.

 

If 1 person dies each year in a country with 10 people, and 10 people die each year in a country with 1000 people, who really has more of a problem?

 

'Rekd

[Bullines]

How about this for a weird barometer. Do some research and find out which countries produce the most serial killers

[Charles Davis]

Millman.... Wow... profound and excellent points!

 

So how many people have been killed in Africa with Machetes the last 20 years, in Cambodia with plastic bags over their heads, in Iraq by acid baths, in Israel by teenagers with bombs strapped around their waist, by stoning in Afghanistan, by planes flying into buildings in NY.

 

Old saying, "In the land of an eye for an eye, everyone ends up blind". Little of the world is forgiving or tolerant. In fact, most of is pretty damned brutal. If everyone killed when they felt it was justified, it would be the end of man.

[Harryman]

quote:

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which countries produce the most serial killers

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I wonder if accurate data is availible for countries where serial killers may be considered valuable employees of government or regional warlords? Having not seen the research referred to, I'll just go long here and assume that an open society may be at a disadvantage due to reporting issues.

[ssibiski]

quote:

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Old saying, "In the land of an eye for an eye, everyone ends up blind". Little of the world is forgiving or tolerant. In fact, most of is pretty damned brutal. If everyone killed when they felt it was justified, it would be the end of man.

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I'm not so sure that it would. I believe most people would become more concious of what they are doing. Most of the problems with all the killings and crimes is that there are no real punishments. Think about it. Most crimminals believe they will get away with what ever crime they are planing, but they know if they do get caught all they have to do is a few years in prison and they can be out again. What kind of dicouragement is that?

 

Steve S.

[Tony]

Speck,The Night Prowler,Gacy,Dahmer....

I think "Team U.S.A." sadly Wins this one.

 

[ 08-27-2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Tony ]

[Andris Skulte]

How much news do we hear from countries like Spain, or Belgium? I think we know about our problems because we live them, while other countries know about their own problems. If you want problems with violence, look into Russia...

 

Andris, talking out of my league here...