Japanese machines vs. Haas

[Bob W.]

I have just taken delivery of my fourth Makino so over the last ten years I have bought four Makino and three Haas machines.  There is a trend that I noticed as I unpacked the parts and did a general inspection and I think it is really cool.  It made me smile because it is the way things should be.  Every Makino I have bought has been better than the last.  Minor inconveniences have been redesigned and fixed, things that weren't perfect have been addressed and improved and the overall quality of the machine is better.  The machines are constantly evolving and improving and it is really cool to see.  It makes me feel like a valued customer, that they care that i get the best value for my $$$ and they are doing all they can to be sure of this.  Some of the details are insignificant and some are very significant and on each machine there have been half a dozen or so improvements from the last.  These improvements follow the trend that things need to work right and not just look right.

 

Many people know that I love to rail on the Haas machines.  I admit, they have their place and I wouldn't be in business if Makino had been the only offering when I got started.  The reason i got so angry over the years at Haas is because my experience with them was the exact opposite.  Each machine was worse than the previous machine.  Parts that were machined would be cast, or stamped, the pendant went from a nice quality metal housing to a very cheap injection molded housing with flash and parting lines, CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP!  They continually robbed the quality from their machines at the expense of the owner and it made me feel like a real sucker, like I was having the wool pulled over my eyes and they were pushing things as far as they could before getting a ton of backlash.

 

It is refreshing to see that there are companies out there that truly take pride in what they produce and it makes me proud to have Makinos in my shop.  Of course we all need to be profitable, including Makino, but I really believe that they are unwilling to sacrifice quality to pad the profit margins and that is a company i like doing business with.  I am sure there are others that take this same approach (Matsuura, Okuma, etc...) but I can only speak from experience.

 

Just my $.02

[#Rekd™]

In many cases with tools, machine tools, tooling etc...you get what you pay for...most of the time.

 

Unfortunately budgets do come into decision making!

 

Good luck with the new shop and toys!!! :unworthy:

[Reko]

I think you are mostly right Bob, but for the last 2 years I have been working in a Haas shop and these guys are able to afford a lot of machinery by going with Hass. They have 10 five axis machines ( 3+2 trunnions ) and 5 smaller mills, and they are getting delivery on their first true 5 axis next week. They were looking at two VF-6's, but I think I sort of talked them into a true 5 axis. If this one can produce the way I think it can, the owner told me in another 6 months, he will buy another one.

 

The reason I think Hass is a good idea, is that we are a prototype shop. The owner has about 15 mills... where if if he went Makino, he'd have 4 or 5 mill using the same dollars. I'm fairly certain we are putting out more than double the work had he gone with better machines, but had less of them.

 

The best example is the Haas UMC750 he just purchased... he said the Makino in the same work range cost about 8 times the money... I find it hard to believe we would get 8 times the work through that one machine, so in this case, I have to agree with this owner... even with the Makino kinematics being much faster, for a prototype shop, we will put far more through 8 machines than 1.

 

Now, we don't do production in any way on them... maybe a two or three week run at most... and I do know the Hass repair guys on a first name basis, so I do see your point.

 

I guess I'm really just agreeing with you... right now, I just happen to work in a Haas shop, so I see the advantages from the price perspective.

[taperlength]

Always good to have a cheap machine on the floor to try out new hires on.  And there are lots of people coming out of schools who only know how to run Haas.

[mkd]

While basically in agreement, howz that Makino F1 team? nascar? oh ok. rest my case.

 

 

by all accounts the Panzer was a much better tank, but it's intricacies of manufacturing slowed production during shrinking resources. The US cleaned their clock by overwhelming numbers of cheaper, but functional tanks.

 IMO, I think Haas recognizes the historical significance of this strategy and has resisted any attempts at going up-market. Probably too busy swimming in money and success.

that being said, as a fan of their market position, it is really annoying at the lack of development and laughable machine design features.

[Bob W.]

Reko, I see your point and agree that they definitely have their place.  Aside from build quality, i am not a fan of VMCs or non pallet changing machines in general and here is why.  The way I look at it, the machine is simply part of the cost of doing business, a monthly expense so to speak. 

 

ALL machines are commodity, whether Haas or Makino, or Matsuura, etc...  If you are running a 20 year old Makino you are probably losing more (double) per month in lost productivity than the payment on a new machine so it doesn't really make sense to do so.  It also takes shop resources to run that machine so why not apply those resources in the most efficient way. Say each of my horizontal machines produces $60k each per month, which is pretty typical.  If I substitute that with a VMC costing 25% what the HMC costs I just saved myself $3500 per month.  Now the VMC is half as efficient as a pallet changing HMC or pallet changing 5-axis due to lower spindle utilization so the less expensive machine produces $30k per month.  So in saving $3500 per month on the cheaper machine the owner just cost himself $30k in revenue.

 

In my experience a Haas running 5-axis parts can generally produce $1500 per day in revenue and cost $2k per month on average.  A pallet changing 5-axis Makino will produce $5k+ per day (accurate number based on experience and my parts) and costs $7k per month.  At the end of the month a shop with five Makino 5-axis machines (and three employees to run them) will out perform a shop with 15 Haas 5-axis machines and ten employees.  Figure each employee costs $5k per month.  Running higher end machines costs more in capital investments but saves a ton in payroll.  Now it doesn't make any sense to go spend $35k per month on five Makino 5-axis machines so the answer is to buy two and put them in a cell.  Now you have three shifts worth of production from two machines with the same three employees.  I figure a pallet changing machine in a cell has the same productivity as 9 standalone VMCs.  Add a second machine to the cell and you have the capacity of 18 VMCs.  So a $1,500,000 cell with two 5-axis machines and three top notch employees can generate $290k per month on $40k per month in overhead where the shop full of Haas 5-axis machines machines can't sniff that even if they are running three shifts and ~$100k per month in overhead.

 

I have seen this first hand and it is why I bought the cell even though I only have one full time employee and one part time employee.  The three of us can push an amazing amount of work through the two horizontals (in one shift) and the cell will make it that much better.

 

There is an extreme amount of value in a turning spindle that is creating chips.  I came to the realization a long time ago that the biggest drag on that value is changing out parts, fixtures, tools, and the speed of the machine.  Say a $20 part typically takes 8 minutes to machine on a Haas for a $150 possible shop rate.  Now add a minute or two for the machine to sit because the operator is getting a drink, a minute or two to change the part, and an hour to change the setup and the effective shop rate just dropped to $80.  Replace the Haas with a pallet changing Makino and the setup change over is eliminated, the 3-4 minutes of down time is eliminated, and the part takes 6 minutes to machine.  The effective shop rate is now $200 for a simgle shift monthly gain of $19k.  This does work, not a pie in the sky scenario.  I think a lot of shops should take a long hard look at how they are doing things.  This sort of stuff takes a LOT of planning and thought but it does work and the results are real.

[Bob W.]

that being said, as a fan of their market position, it is really annoying at the lack of development and laughable machine design features.

Exactly my point.  They are aiming REALLY low and they could easily do better and create more value for their customers.  They are more interested in their own success than that of their customers.

[#Rekd™]

Doosan is much better choice then Haas on entry level machines.

[AMCNitro]

Reko, I see your point and agree that they definitely have their place.  Aside from build quality, i am not a fan of VMCs or non pallet changing machines in general and here is why.  The way I look at it, the machine is simply part of the cost of doing business, a monthly expense so to speak. 

 

ALL machines are commodity, whether Haas or Makino, or Matsuura, etc...  If you are running a 20 year old Makino you are probably losing more (double) per month in lost productivity than the payment on a new machine so it doesn't really make sense to do so.  It also takes shop resources to run that machine so why not apply those resources in the most efficient way. Say each of my horizontal machines produces $60k each per month, which is pretty typical.  If I substitute that with a VMC costing 25% what the HMC costs I just saved myself $3500 per month.  Now the VMC is half as efficient as a pallet changing HMC or pallet changing 5-axis due to lower spindle utilization so the less expensive machine produces $30k per month.  So in saving $3500 per month on the cheaper machine the owner just cost himself $30k in revenue.

 

In my experience a Haas running 5-axis parts can generally produce $1500 per day in revenue and cost $2k per month on average.  A pallet changing 5-axis Makino will produce $5k+ per day (accurate number based on experience and my parts) and costs $7k per month.  At the end of the month a shop with five Makino 5-axis machines (and three employees to run them) will out perform a shop with 15 Haas 5-axis machines and ten employees.  Figure each employee costs $5k per month.  Running higher end machines costs more in capital investments but saves a ton in payroll.  Now it doesn't make any sense to go spend $35k per month on five Makino 5-axis machines so the answer is to buy two and put them in a cell.  Now you have three shifts worth of production from two machines with the same three employees.  I figure a pallet changing machine in a cell has the same productivity as 9 standalone VMCs.  Add a second machine to the cell and you have the capacity of 18 VMCs.  So a $1,500,000 cell with two 5-axis machines and three top notch employees can generate $290k per month on $40k per month in overhead where the shop full of Haas 5-axis machines machines can't sniff that even if they are running three shifts and ~$100k per month in overhead.

 

I have seen this first hand and it is why I bought the cell even though I only have one full time employee and one part time employee.  The three of us can push an amazing amount of work through the two horizontals (in one shift) and the cell will make it that much better.

 

There is an extreme amount of value in a turning spindle that is creating chips.  I came to the realization a long time ago that the biggest drag on that value is changing out parts, fixtures, tools, and the speed of the machine.  Say a $20 part typically takes 8 minutes to machine on a Haas for a $150 possible shop rate.  Now add a minute or two for the machine to sit because the operator is getting a drink, a minute or two to change the part, and an hour to change the setup and the effective shop rate just dropped to $80.  Replace the Haas with a pallet changing Makino and the setup change over is eliminated, the 3-4 minutes of down time is eliminated, and the part takes 6 minutes to machine.  The effective shop rate is now $200 for a simgle shift monthly gain of $19k.  This does work, not a pie in the sky scenario.  I think a lot of shops should take a long hard look at how they are doing things.  This sort of stuff takes a LOT of planning and thought but it does work and the results are real.

Thats all very well, but you have to think about the fact that not every shop has your type of parts, or your turnaround.  Every shop is different, I can see why a Haas wouldn't fit your shop.  But the Haas has a place in manufacturing, if it didn't the company wouldn't be as big as it is.  The Makinos have a place as well.  Remember, every shop is different, every shop is dealing with a different reality.

[Bob W.]

I would agree with that, i just got on my soapbox a little...  The main point I was trying to make was that it is refreshing top see a trend where quality and functionality are improving with the passage of time instead of every last nickel being stripped out of a product at the cost of quality.  If Haas had a constant improvement (Kaizen) approach and were truly invested in that I don't know that i would have ever gone or looked elsewhere.  Back in the day i thought the more expensive machines were a complete waste of money until i had a new Haas down for three weeks during a crucial time due to build quality issues.

[AMCNitro]

I would agree with that, i just got on my soapbox a little...  The main point I was trying to make was that it is refreshing top see a trend where quality and functionality are improving with the passage of time instead of every last nickel being stripped out of a product at the cost of quality.  If Haas had a constant improvement (Kaizen) approach and were truly invested in that I don't know that i would have ever gone or looked elsewhere.  Back in the day i thought the more expensive machines were a complete waste of money until i had a new Haas down for three weeks during a crucial time due to build quality issues.

The 1st machining center I ever worked on was a Haas VF4 back in 2001 since then I had the chance to work on Fadals(ugh!) and Doosans, and then back to Haas.  The latest Haas I worked on was a 2015 VF3, and I can tell you, from experience, that the machines have improved  a LOT.  Yet, as you say, they do suffer from some of the same problems of machines from 2006.  I love Haas machines, they are easy to learn, easy to teach, and the controls are easy to navigate.  Yet, even I know that they are far from the best, but for the smaller shops, and shops just starting out, they work because they are accessible.  If you're a half decent machinist and you know that your new shop is going to be running thousand of parts instead of hundreds, then you buy the Makino, because you have the volume to be able to say "the machine will pay for itself".  But Haas machines do well at prototype shops, with runs in the hundreds not the thousands.  Like I said earlier, they have a place in the market.  

[brandon b]

Could be worse, we are mainly an all fadal vmc shop 7 of them. With Um..."special" operators. No exaggeration, 3 of the 5 operators will take on average 1 to 3 hours to set up a job. Nothing difficult at all.. indicate a vice or 2 in straight, load a fixture, sweep in or pick up x and y with an edge finder, set tool lengths. And wait for me or another guy to go thru and check it all.

 

Absolutely pathetic.

 

Stuck in 1980

[Bob W.]

But Haas machines do well at prototype shops, with runs in the hundreds not the thousands.  Like I said earlier, they have a place in the market.  

That is where I think there is a disconnect.  I AM a prototype shop.  On occasion i will run parts where I am making a few thousand but it is the exception (2-3 times a YEAR).  My typical work load involves one-offs (molds) and production runs from 30-100 (commodity, not crazy aerospace) parts.  I don't use these machines for production where I am cranking out the same part for weeks on end.  I will start a project and be done in 2-3 days.  I think there is the perception that these machines are only justified if you have some huge factory and are building engines for Ford.  I am a two man shop making parts for the guy in the next county selling high end chisels, or the local Porsche race car shop selling after market car parts.  They are really very flexible and it is worth a good hard look for a lot of shops.  I think they immediately get shot down because of price and 'those are only for big shops running huge production' mentality.

[Bob W.]

Could be worse, we are mainly an all fadal vmc shop 7 of them. With Um..."special" operators. No exaggeration, 3 of the 5 operators will take on average 1 to 3 hours to set up a job. Nothing difficult at all.. indicate a vice or 2 in straight, load a fixture, sweep in or pick up x and y with an edge finder, set tool lengths. And wait for me or another guy to go thru and check it all.

 

Absolutely pathetic.

 

Stuck in 1980

Yes, I've been there.  It would be more efficient for you to just set up the job in the first place.  Then you are left wondering, 'why do I have this bozo working for me if I need to do his job'???  I had to stop cycling because I would head out for two hours and when I got back expecting half a dozen good parts there would be one good one and one in the scrap bin.  i would be like "where did all the time go????  What happened???  These were repeat jobs and it wasn't the first time we had run them.  It is really hard to find guys that really know what they are doing.  The solution (for me) is to change the process so they don't need to know what they are doing so much.  This is the cell system, just follow the instructions on the video screen at the load/ unload station....

[AMCNitro]

That is where I think there is a disconnect.  I AM a prototype shop.  On occasion i will run parts where I am making a few thousand but it is the exception (2-3 times a YEAR).  My typical work load involves one-offs (molds) and production runs from 30-100 (commodity, not crazy aerospace) parts.  I don't use these machines for production where I am cranking out the same part for weeks on end.  I will start a project and be done in 2-3 days.  I think there is the perception that these machines are only justified if you have some huge factory and are building engines for Ford.  I am a two man shop making parts for the guy in the next county selling high end chisels, or the local Porsche race car shop selling after market car parts.  They are really very flexible and it is worth a good hard look for a lot of shops.  I think they immediately get shot down because of price and 'those are only for big shops running huge production' mentality.

Well, I stand corrected then, at least about the type of work that you do.  

[mike93]

makino to hass is not rely a fair comparison.  Three years ago we bought a 510 mazack for less the 10,000 more then a hass the same size. but if you could set up well the machine is running in a job shop!! hopefully you wont run out of programs to run.

[brandon b]

Owner looks at me like I'm unreasonable. I'm just sick of having to work 60 70 hours a week for something that should take 40 hours max (on our machines) just by being efficient and organized

[civiceg]

The big trend I have seen with salesmen is to push high quality multi pallet HMC's to replace multiple lower quality VMC's. There is a time and place for it. 

 

But, If all you do is low quantity runs for .gov customers that require first article inspections, your HMC will sit without production. In that scenario, I will take 4 spindles to one everyday that ends in Y. 

[Zoober]

The big trend I have seen with salesmen is to push high quality multi pallet HMC's to replace multiple lower quality VMC's. There is a time and place for it.

 

But, If all you do is low quantity runs for .gov customers that require first article inspections. I will take 4 spindles to one everyday that ends in Y.

I would argue that. All we do are short runs. We can turn our Makino horizontals three times faster than any vertical. Plus, we can revert to a running job WHILE we wait on a first article, while the stand alone vert waits, not earning a cent.

[Bob W.]

I would argue that. All we do are short runs. We can turn our Makino horizontals three times faster than any vertical. Plus, we can revert to a running job WHILE we wait on a first article, while the stand alone vert waits, not earning a cent.

I would agree.  Seems like an application where a FMS would kill it.  Fun the first part, put the pallet on the rack and run another job (or three) while the first article is being done, then make the tool adjustments and pull the job back in, or get it back in the queue when it is ready to go.  100% spindle utilization.

[civiceg]

Also, the proficiency of your inspection department comes into play. I have tied up 6 pallets waiting on inspection.

 

If you have some production, then yes I agree, it works well. 

[Zoober]

Also, the proficiency of your inspection department comes into play. I have tied up 6 pallets waiting on inspection.

 

If you have some production, then yes I agree, it works well.

If that's the case, no machine choice would matter much then.

Production or not, a vertical must stop operation during a setup.

A Horizontal continues to run during 80+% of setup time if it is done correctly.

[BenK]

Also, the proficiency of your inspection department comes into play. I have tied up 6 pallets waiting on inspection.

 

If you have some production, then yes I agree, it works well. 

 

 

I think you just found the bottleneck in your shop. 

[metalmansteve]

This may sound like a silly question but when running a cell of horizontals do you take into consideration the materials you're cutting in each station? I have 5 haas verticals and run nickel in 3 of them exclusively, aluminum in one exclusively. I assume to maximize productivity in a cell your recycle bins are mixed with whatever materials are run through in que. My nickel scrap (not so much recently) is valuable and only worth half if it's contaminated with other chips.

[Bob W.]

This may sound like a silly question but when running a cell of horizontals do you take into consideration the materials you're cutting in each station? I have 5 haas verticals and run nickel in 3 of them exclusively, aluminum in one exclusively. I assume to maximize productivity in a cell your recycle bins are mixed with whatever materials are run through in que. My nickel scrap (not so much recently) is valuable and only worth half if it's contaminated with other chips.

I haven't run the cell yet but when running the horizontals we try to keep the chips separate but it is secondary.  We will not let the machine sit for 30 minutes while we clean out the chips, etc...  The cost of the machine sitting would be 3X the value of the clean chips.