The three steps of journey level machining

[nickbe10]

I live by these:

Step 1:   Establish the scapegoat

Step 2:  Cover thyne own a$$ first

Step 3: When all else fails point out everyone else's deficiencies in order to distract from your own.

Try and stay off step 3, there is no honor there......

The really dangerous people in a machine shop are those who skip Steps 1 & 2 completely and move straight on to Step 3

[Machineguy]

We have one here. #3 is #1 for him.

PITA

[gcode]

The preferred course of action is to just do it right in the first place

 

[nickbe10]

2 hours ago, gcode said:

The preferred course of action is to just do it right in the first place

Precisely, Steps 1 and 2 are all about stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility. Once you have done that to be successful you must verify and double check, single block, distance to go etc.....and voila, no need for step 3.

GCODE gets the Xmas turkey!

[crazy^millman]

2 hours ago, gcode said:

The preferred course of action is to just do it right in the first place

 

Naw that is too much work. Lets do it10 times 10 different ways that are not right and hope one of them prove to be right so we can say we are working hard even though we are not getting anything done that is correct then we will blame someone else for the trouble we got ourselves into all the while making sure we make up a fancy bar graph that has purple unicorns and pink pixie dust on it to make everyone go ohhhh and ahhh isn't that pretty.

[Newbeeee™]

2 hours ago, gcode said:

The preferred course of action is to just do it right in the first place

 

You're so old school G...

Where I'm contracting, the machine shop supervisor is a #3.

A #2 in the true sense of a #2, but for the sake of your chart above, a genuine #3!

[gcode]

2 minutes ago, newbeeee said:

You're so old school G...

sadly that's true.. both old school ... and just plain old 

[nickbe10]

44 minutes ago, C^Millman said:

while making sure we make up a fancy bar graph that has purple unicorns and pink pixie dust on it to make everyone go ohhhh and ahhh isn't that pretty.

Ah yes that is the old if you can't impress them with facts, baffle them with BS "add on" that SOOOOOO many step threers use.......

[Zoffen]

I make sure to use this picture as backgrounds for all my bar graphs and charts:

Seems to be a big hit in all meetings with those C level people!

[heavychevy2155]

I think that is the photo of a Topsolid salesman!!!  Promises everything delivers nothing!! 

[Zoffen]

4 hours ago, heavychevy2155 said:

I think that is the photo of a Topsolid salesman!!!  Promises everything delivers nothing!! 

Just curious and kinda OT...why don't you like topsolid? Its seems like the beez kneez for millturn stuff.

[jeff]

On 10/23/2017 at 1:06 PM, Machineguy said:

We have one here. #3 is #1 for him.

PITA

Same here.

It's especially obvious when this guy wants a raise. He'll spend a month being a tattletale to the boss pointing out what everyone is doing wrong (in his eyes) and then he'll ask for a raise.

And then it's back to normal for him... back to wandering around chatting with people, looking out the side door, playing on his phone, etc...

[specv]

On 10/24/2017 at 0:18 PM, Zoffen said:

Just curious and kinda OT...why don't you like topsolid? Its seems like the beez kneez for millturn stuff.

He always bashes it but we have it here and love it and programming on our new Okuma Multus  with it. I really like designing with it as well, I just designed a fixture with multiple moving parts and it turned out awesome. 

[heavychevy2155]

I'm so happy you are loving TS,  as for us, we struggle every day with it to get usable code.  Maybe it's just the way we have implemented it, but dear god!!  I "bash it" because all of the great things they say it does, but it just doesn't really work for us.  It seems every time there is an update our Okuma machine deff's get hosed and then we have to wait for Jay to do his magic song and dance.  It also takes so much work just to be able to start programming.  Import models, convert models, heal models, create Machine Part Setup, create a Machining.  Then work on placing the MPS on the machine, maybe you can start programming at this time.  Nope, machine element activation.  Oh man I forgot to do a machine part environment, ok, got that done.  So lets start putting down some toolpath, I'll do a sidemill toolpath, you think everything is looking good but your path goes everywhere but where you want!!  Ok, Cad mode, then start sketching wire frame. WHAT!! you can't put wire frame on all edges,  ok I'll just have to manually sketch it then.  By the time I have to do all that crap, I would be half done with the job in Mastercam!!  A day latter you finish programming this easy part, then lets do some setup sheets.  Right click on Machining file, drafting, I'll choose tool sheet, operation sheet, fixture sheet, ok.  Crap!!  I forgot to publish my machine part environment and my machine part, might as well publish my origin point.  Then spend half a day scaling all the models and tools so they are not all jacked up!!  

As you can see, you have so much work up front to do before you can start putting down toolpath.  Speaking of toolpaths, there really isn't any rhyme or reason to the toolpath setting's.  The naming of the functions are just weird, and are buried in tab after tab.  You get a toolpath to work then copy and paste it then you can't get it to work on the new geometry.  So I'll just delete it and start with a new path and mess with it till it works.  Hope you don't have to build a custom tool assembly,  that is a battle I don't wish on anyone,  You have to add all the frames and inherited functions manually and add revolution silhouette's for the tool and holder, add tool and ground groups with the functions added in. 

As I have said, I am happy it works for you.  I guess I'm just not as smart as the rest of the folks that say they love it.  I'm ok with that,  but I can and will "bash it" if I feel like it.  Don't like it when I do, so what, I really don't care.  All I see is the very large sums of money that we continue to throw at this software and get sub par results, but I'm just a lowly programmer with no say or pull within the company, but if I had to run a business with TS I can't see how you could keep the doors open with the short lead times that most manufactures demand these day.  I could go on, but I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

[htm01]

come on, tell us how you really feel!

[Guest]

10 hours ago, heavychevy2155 said:

I'm so happy you are loving TS,  as for us, we struggle every day with it to get usable code.  Maybe it's just the way we have implemented it, but dear god!!  I "bash it" because all of the great things they say it does, but it just doesn't really work for us.  It seems every time there is an update our Okuma machine deff's get hosed and then we have to wait for Jay to do his magic song and dance.  It also takes so much work just to be able to start programming.  Import models, convert models, heal models, create Machine Part Setup, create a Machining.  Then work on placing the MPS on the machine, maybe you can start programming at this time.  Nope, machine element activation.  Oh man I forgot to do a machine part environment, ok, got that done.  So lets start putting down some toolpath, I'll do a sidemill toolpath, you think everything is looking good but your path goes everywhere but where you want!!  Ok, Cad mode, then start sketching wire frame. WHAT!! you can't put wire frame on all edges,  ok I'll just have to manually sketch it then.  By the time I have to do all that crap, I would be half done with the job in Mastercam!!  A day latter you finish programming this easy part, then lets do some setup sheets.  Right click on Machining file, drafting, I'll choose tool sheet, operation sheet, fixture sheet, ok.  Crap!!  I forgot to publish my machine part environment and my machine part, might as well publish my origin point.  Then spend half a day scaling all the models and tools so they are not all jacked up!!  

As you can see, you have so much work up front to do before you can start putting down toolpath.  Speaking of toolpaths, there really isn't any rhyme or reason to the toolpath setting's.  The naming of the functions are just weird, and are buried in tab after tab.  You get a toolpath to work then copy and paste it then you can't get it to work on the new geometry.  So I'll just delete it and start with a new path and mess with it till it works.  Hope you don't have to build a custom tool assembly,  that is a battle I don't wish on anyone,  You have to add all the frames and inherited functions manually and add revolution silhouette's for the tool and holder, add tool and ground groups with the functions added in. 

As I have said, I am happy it works for you.  I guess I'm just not as smart as the rest of the folks that say they love it.  I'm ok with that,  but I can and will "bash it" if I feel like it.  Don't like it when I do, so what, I really don't care.  All I see is the very large sums of money that we continue to throw at this software and get sub par results, but I'm just a lowly programmer with no say or pull within the company, but if I had to run a business with TS I can't see how you could keep the doors open with the short lead times that most manufactures demand these day.  I could go on, but I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

I feel for you...

I actually appreciate all of this.....I keep hearing ALL these wonderful things but it's nice to hear some real world experience.

[specv]

10 hours ago, heavychevy2155 said:

I'm so happy you are loving TS,  as for us, we struggle every day with it to get usable code.  Maybe it's just the way we have implemented it, but dear god!!  I "bash it" because all of the great things they say it does, but it just doesn't really work for us.  It seems every time there is an update our Okuma machine deff's get hosed and then we have to wait for Jay to do his magic song and dance.  It also takes so much work just to be able to start programming.  Import models, convert models, heal models, create Machine Part Setup, create a Machining.  Then work on placing the MPS on the machine, maybe you can start programming at this time.  Nope, machine element activation.  Oh man I forgot to do a machine part environment, ok, got that done.  So lets start putting down some toolpath, I'll do a sidemill toolpath, you think everything is looking good but your path goes everywhere but where you want!!  Ok, Cad mode, then start sketching wire frame. WHAT!! you can't put wire frame on all edges,  ok I'll just have to manually sketch it then.  By the time I have to do all that crap, I would be half done with the job in Mastercam!!  A day latter you finish programming this easy part, then lets do some setup sheets.  Right click on Machining file, drafting, I'll choose tool sheet, operation sheet, fixture sheet, ok.  Crap!!  I forgot to publish my machine part environment and my machine part, might as well publish my origin point.  Then spend half a day scaling all the models and tools so they are not all jacked up!!  

As you can see, you have so much work up front to do before you can start putting down toolpath.  Speaking of toolpaths, there really isn't any rhyme or reason to the toolpath setting's.  The naming of the functions are just weird, and are buried in tab after tab.  You get a toolpath to work then copy and paste it then you can't get it to work on the new geometry.  So I'll just delete it and start with a new path and mess with it till it works.  Hope you don't have to build a custom tool assembly,  that is a battle I don't wish on anyone,  You have to add all the frames and inherited functions manually and add revolution silhouette's for the tool and holder, add tool and ground groups with the functions added in. 

As I have said, I am happy it works for you.  I guess I'm just not as smart as the rest of the folks that say they love it.  I'm ok with that,  but I can and will "bash it" if I feel like it.  Don't like it when I do, so what, I really don't care.  All I see is the very large sums of money that we continue to throw at this software and get sub par results, but I'm just a lowly programmer with no say or pull within the company, but if I had to run a business with TS I can't see how you could keep the doors open with the short lead times that most manufactures demand these day.  I could go on, but I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

Thanks for all your input, I would love to hear more PM me if you'd like, we did a lot of training and know with a software like this that has powerful verification there will be hoops to jump through and define things way more than MC. Sure i can get code in less time with MC, but i can't simulate or verify even close to TS with MC.

 

Sorry for the Hijack guys, back to the original topic

[GoetzInd]

I've done some demos with TS (they are local) and have talked to a couple users in the area about it. The common complaint is reliability and support. I think the software itself is awesome when it's functioning correctly but it is trying to do so much that it encounters issues far to often. Couple that with the fact that there are like 2 people in the US that really know the stuff and other than that you better speak French. I'm sure as time goes on it will be better supported in the US but I would never go out on a limb until then.

Mike

[Zoffen]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Yes it does appear to be a giant mountain to scale to get everything initially setup but once on the plateau its all butterfly's and rainbows right?!?!!

It is nice to hear users from both sides of the spectrum.

[BenK]

Don't forget, #4 Blame the tool to deflect away from your lack of understanding.

[htm01]

14 hours ago, heavychevy2155 said:

I'm so happy you are loving TS,  as for us, we struggle every day with it to get usable code.  Maybe it's just the way we have implemented it, but dear god!!  I "bash it" because all of the great things they say it does, but it just doesn't really work for us.  It seems every time there is an update our Okuma machine deff's get hosed and then we have to wait for Jay to do his magic song and dance.  It also takes so much work just to be able to start programming.  Import models, convert models, heal models, create Machine Part Setup, create a Machining.  Then work on placing the MPS on the machine, maybe you can start programming at this time.  Nope, machine element activation.  Oh man I forgot to do a machine part environment, ok, got that done.  So lets start putting down some toolpath, I'll do a sidemill toolpath, you think everything is looking good but your path goes everywhere but where you want!!  Ok, Cad mode, then start sketching wire frame. WHAT!! you can't put wire frame on all edges,  ok I'll just have to manually sketch it then.  By the time I have to do all that crap, I would be half done with the job in Mastercam!!  A day latter you finish programming this easy part, then lets do some setup sheets.  Right click on Machining file, drafting, I'll choose tool sheet, operation sheet, fixture sheet, ok.  Crap!!  I forgot to publish my machine part environment and my machine part, might as well publish my origin point.  Then spend half a day scaling all the models and tools so they are not all jacked up!!  

As you can see, you have so much work up front to do before you can start putting down toolpath.  Speaking of toolpaths, there really isn't any rhyme or reason to the toolpath setting's.  The naming of the functions are just weird, and are buried in tab after tab.  You get a toolpath to work then copy and paste it then you can't get it to work on the new geometry.  So I'll just delete it and start with a new path and mess with it till it works.  Hope you don't have to build a custom tool assembly,  that is a battle I don't wish on anyone,  You have to add all the frames and inherited functions manually and add revolution silhouette's for the tool and holder, add tool and ground groups with the functions added in. 

As I have said, I am happy it works for you.  I guess I'm just not as smart as the rest of the folks that say they love it.  I'm ok with that,  but I can and will "bash it" if I feel like it.  Don't like it when I do, so what, I really don't care.  All I see is the very large sums of money that we continue to throw at this software and get sub par results, but I'm just a lowly programmer with no say or pull within the company, but if I had to run a business with TS I can't see how you could keep the doors open with the short lead times that most manufactures demand these day.  I could go on, but I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

i went through the same type of struggles with camworks, they preached it would do everything.      except what we wanted it to do

[heavychevy2155]

Ben, I already said I am probably not as smart as the people that love TS.  Not trying to hide that fact at all.  I guess its just a compatibility issue, I'm not very compatible with it.  

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, heavychevy2155 said:

Ben, I already said I am probably not as smart as the people that love TS.  Not trying to hide that fact at all.  I guess its just a compatibility issue, I'm not very compatible with it.  

Rick for what it is worth you got my vote as smart enough and thanks for being open and honest about your experience. We are different and end of the day we are all just trying to earn a living the best way we know how.

[BenK]

2 hours ago, heavychevy2155 said:

Ben, I already said I am probably not as smart as the people that love TS.  Not trying to hide that fact at all.  I guess its just a compatibility issue, I'm not very compatible with it.  

Honestly my comment wasn't directly calling you out. I just happen to see it a lot where people blame the tool instead of saying it's their lack of understanding that is to blame. I was just running with the direction of the thread and make a joke. In hindsight it probably wasn't the best place to do so.

 

On a serious note, do you think it would help to get a proper rundown on how everything is supposed to work would be helpful? I know I have been in your position, getting more and more frustrated with something until it all just comes together and makes sense. I was that way with Spaceclaim. I personally hate the software and ended up dropping it, but I know others that love it. 

[YoDoug®]

17 hours ago, heavychevy2155 said:

I'm so happy you are loving TS,  as for us, we struggle every day with it to get usable code.  Maybe it's just the way we have implemented it, but dear god!!  I "bash it" because all of the great things they say it does, but it just doesn't really work for us.  It seems every time there is an update our Okuma machine deff's get hosed and then we have to wait for Jay to do his magic song and dance.  It also takes so much work just to be able to start programming.  Import models, convert models, heal models, create Machine Part Setup, create a Machining.  Then work on placing the MPS on the machine, maybe you can start programming at this time.  Nope, machine element activation.  Oh man I forgot to do a machine part environment, ok, got that done.  So lets start putting down some toolpath, I'll do a sidemill toolpath, you think everything is looking good but your path goes everywhere but where you want!!  Ok, Cad mode, then start sketching wire frame. WHAT!! you can't put wire frame on all edges,  ok I'll just have to manually sketch it then.  By the time I have to do all that crap, I would be half done with the job in Mastercam!!  A day latter you finish programming this easy part, then lets do some setup sheets.  Right click on Machining file, drafting, I'll choose tool sheet, operation sheet, fixture sheet, ok.  Crap!!  I forgot to publish my machine part environment and my machine part, might as well publish my origin point.  Then spend half a day scaling all the models and tools so they are not all jacked up!!  

As you can see, you have so much work up front to do before you can start putting down toolpath.  Speaking of toolpaths, there really isn't any rhyme or reason to the toolpath setting's.  The naming of the functions are just weird, and are buried in tab after tab.  You get a toolpath to work then copy and paste it then you can't get it to work on the new geometry.  So I'll just delete it and start with a new path and mess with it till it works.  Hope you don't have to build a custom tool assembly,  that is a battle I don't wish on anyone,  You have to add all the frames and inherited functions manually and add revolution silhouette's for the tool and holder, add tool and ground groups with the functions added in. 

As I have said, I am happy it works for you.  I guess I'm just not as smart as the rest of the folks that say they love it.  I'm ok with that,  but I can and will "bash it" if I feel like it.  Don't like it when I do, so what, I really don't care.  All I see is the very large sums of money that we continue to throw at this software and get sub par results, but I'm just a lowly programmer with no say or pull within the company, but if I had to run a business with TS I can't see how you could keep the doors open with the short lead times that most manufactures demand these day.  I could go on, but I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

I am in the loving TopSolid camp, but with that being said I will acknowledge that it is more laborious for simple stuff. If I only had to deal with single turret/single spindle lathes I would not like it. However, for complex twin/triple turret machines and five axis mills I love it. Although I can model all of BMT blocks for a simple Y axis lathe and accurately simulate multiple tools mounted in one turret station. As far as getting good code, I have never been afraid to edit when needed but I will admit the posts are like 90% there. I am hoping to take the post class with Jay sometime next year. For the things that do not post as it should, I make a lot of macros to handle repetitive things like spindle transfers, etc. As for Okuma machine def's, I make most of my own my self so they only update when I update them. I also use TopSolid for all of my modelling needs. I like having it all in one.