back to 9-for now

[d0gFartz]

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Surely the smart thing CNC systems "could and should" have done was to ask users what they wanted.

This is basic marketing.

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Do a search, this was covered in a post about 20 pages long a while back. Everybody wanted this and they wanted that and so on. So guess what, it couldnt be done with the old interface so they made the changes and here we are today. You got the changes you've been asking for but you want it with an outdated interface & that cant be done.....everybody wants something but isnt willing to learn the new stuff to get it so they pitch a bitch right away and diss on it, how long you expect them to keep building on the old interface or even offering updates to it.....how many people are still running windows 98?, still bitching to Microsoft you want them to offer updates to that?

[mig]

For most of us mastercam is not a toy. This is nice tool wich help us to work. It doesn't metter what interface it has , what does metter , what you able to do with and how convinience to work with.

For this moment looks like cnc soft. making beta testers from all of us for our money.This is my feeling. Yeas mastercam should be chenge ,but from 6 to 9 mr105 took 10 years, so in another 10 years X will be perfect? ........

In my opinion new ver should take all best from the old add new ideas ..... come out on the market.

[Slick]

"If you had to stand in front of a 5 axis machine and figure it out it'd be a piece of $hit too i bet."<--- Dunno if I'm doing the quot ething right

 

Boy oh boy, where to start. I guess I'll get it out of the way, I like the looks of X, I've learned it, used it, and look forward to when it is ready to run efficiently. I do not fear change. I am sorry to see V9 on it's way out though.

 

Speed, that's the ticket though. And no offense to anyone who takes this personal. Anyone who can stand in front of a 5-axis machine and "figure it out" (a competent "Machinist") deserves to say whether they think it's a quality machine or not!

I'm sure the same person that can "figure out" a machine, can "figure out" a software, new interface and all. The person who can't "figure out the machine" is the kind of machinist that is starting to flood our trade. You know the type, the person that is always asking you to "teach them how to program", the guy who wants to go to training so he can be "shown how to program".

How many CNC programmers these days started out as an operator?

How many programmers these days taught themselves how to program? Not because they wanted to make more money. Not because they couldn't cut it in college but were good enough at using a computer that they figured out being a CNC programmer was as close as you could get to being an engineer as you could without a degree (ya ya, run on sentence).

How many CNC programmers don't even like that title? They just say that they "Machine", or "Cut metal"?

To me that's what I see as the problem. I think X looks great! Heck, it's user friendly. There's going to be a lot of people that will be able to pick it up really fast because of the new interface. All those icons, all the new tricks that it can do. And trust me, I see them all the time, contractors we hire show them to me. And yep, there the ones that didn't get that degree, or worse yet, have one! There also the ones that waste my company's time and money. Why? Because I have to go back and fix there programs after they are let go. Why do I have to do that? Because they're great at running software, but have absolutely no grasp on what efficiency is. You can argue all you want about who can program faster, and hey, I think I'm kinda fast too. But that's not what it comes down to, what it comes down to is how fast your part is being made down on the floor. And anyone who has ever ran a machine knows that there are a lot of "Cannned Cycles" in MasterCAM that are a waste of time. That snapping on a surface and picking a routine isn't the answer.

The reason I chose to program in MasterCAM was because of the efficiency that it gave me. I didn't want to program in CATIA because of the time I saw it wasting me. Now I look at VX and see a lot of the same things as V5 CATIA.

Medaq, your right, and I thought the same thing, why not make a softkey or a parameter so VX could be formatted like V9. Great idea... but really, what's the point of making a switch that rolls back a software version (Course Windows XP has that in there advanced settings for there performance!)? I thought the same thing when MC went from 6 to 7!

I think it comes down to this. You pretty much have to learn the new software, if you don't you'll be behind the times. It's like the Machinist's handbook, they add pages, but they take out pages (My version 12 has some pretty cool info on threading). It's like all the tool builders that trained me to mill stainless on a Bridgeport, not one of them ever bought a sign bar, they made them from scratch. Or like the first guy to explain to me what subroutines were, and how to hand write programs. They probably wouldn't even know how to turn MasterCAM on, or better yet, they're probably retired)! It's just the natural course of technology, it makes things easier for everyone, not necessarily better, just easier.

 

 

What's the first thing you think to do when your car breaks down... Pop the hood and see if you can fix it? Or call someone on your celphone?

[FLIPPER™]

Nicely said Slick.

[Greg Williams]

Hey Slick Well said.

 

I am with you I do not see what all the fuss is about. personally I think X is a step in the right direction.

[Thad]

For all the fellas that think CNC Software should've asked us first on how we wanted things, I give a big +1 to that. I'd keep that email in my special folder that contains emails from Microsoft, Ulead, Adobe, Symantec, and Zone Labs from back when *they* all asked me how I would like their software to work.

 

Thad

[DavidB]

Thad Merry Xmas mate.

Imagine Bill Gates asking what I would like in XP Sp3. LOL

 

All being said we program parts to make money. What makes that program faster use it and be happy.

X will get there (I hope). I think some including myself are left a little let down after all the hipe and Maintenance

 

Merry Xmas all and have a safe new year

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Slick...

 

I could not have said it better myself!

 

[Thad]

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Thad Merry Xmas mate.

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David,

 

Back at ya, my friend! Enjoy the holidays and hopefully some time off.

 

Thad

[phil darcy]

Food for thought ,maybe CNC software could and should extend the maint fees we have already paid waiting on X at least 1 yr.I thinks this would go a long way in help transission and learning (and feeling)curve going to X. I see from this form that paying for maint. and the way X is at this time has people feeling that they has be take advantive of.

I want to use X but like others I can,t find the time to.I olso know that it will be good in time.

 

owner/operator motorcycle hot rod race shop

[part_timer]

Why is it a select few try and find loopholes for the mistakes CNC has made and the completely unintuitive way they have designed X and released a buggy product. I know after years of using 8 and 9 that X is not just new, it is a complete departure from everything that we have learned. Idiotic is what I would call it.

 

As for comapring it to microsft or adobe, who are you kidding? These compies do nothing but survey their users. In fact I would bet they spend more on gathering feedback from their users than CNC spends on development. In today's corporate world, smart and saavy compaies pay attention to their core users needs before they change a single thing.

 

X is gathering dust on more shelves than anyone here can imagine. Look at the who is using X and there are what 40 or so replies. That's becuase like us, people think it is a waste of time.

 

Take off the rose colored glasses and look again, those using X are the minority, if they were an animial they'd be endangered.

 

Stop glossing over the problems and help us wake these guys up.

[Guest]

All your bellyaching ain't gonna change the direction they are going. They will fix what is needed. I just cannot imagine a wholesale change to what they have done at this point.

 

So, IMNSHO, you have 3 choices, stay where you are and fall behind, move up or move on.

 

It's just that simple.

[Chipps]

I agree we do have to wake them up to the fact that they have made a right "stuff up". This X needs a major overhaul before it can be used to any degree of speed and confidence. How anyone can say that it is quicker is beyond me. It is just so easy to prove that it is not. All you have to do is be able to count and be honest about it. Even these couple of supporters if they were honest would say there are many things they dont like about X. We stopped using it a while ago because why keep flogging something you believe is dead. We could also complain about the beta testers but of course we dont know if they really had a voice anyhow it would appear now they had limited input because it would not be like it is if they had a voice.

[mig]

I would like to see what creators going to say about this things.

I in the forum for long time. I recognize names witch using mastercam for many years. If they not to happy by product it should mean something even for statistic and marketing isn’t it?

Slick... i behind of your words buddy.

[dwsz71]

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I know after years of using 8 and 9 that X is not just new, it is a complete departure from everything that we have learned.

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HOW!?! The terminology is similar, if not the same. Your toolpathing is the similar, if not the same. Your tool and material libraries are similar, if not the same. The level manager is similar. Why is it that the "majority" ( ) just can't get past the "where do I find it" stage of the new interface. Or the CAD functionality is not the same as v9. Who care’s? You want a CAD package, go buy one or learn how to do it in a CAM package. Design does what it’s supposed to do. Translate, draw, dimension, model (with the solid option). Does it do all of them exceptionally? That’s debatable. Is it more convenient than purchasing an additional CAD package? Hell yeah it is.

 

By the way, I think the real “majority” are those users who have not voiced their opinion yet. I could be wrong.

 

Bugs? Eh, maybe, xxxx_ happens, it'll get fixed, hopefully. But from my experience there have been bugs reported on the forum that I couldn't duplicate. Or files posted where there were just plain over sights by the user. Not that I’m some Mastercam superstar, but I try to help everyone I can. Nailing hardware/driver/software/network conflict issues is almost impossible on the forum, and it's got to be just as difficult for CNC Software.

 

Maintenance?

 

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The Mastercam X Maintenance Program is a software delivery plan designed to provide you with the most recent enhancements, the latest software tools, and the best new features. This means that your investment in Mastercam X will continue to pay off by keeping your shop at the top of its game.

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It’s a software delivery plan. Regardless of the fluff and sales-speak, paying maintenance does not mean you are going to get perfect software. It doesn't even mean your going to get what "you" want from the software. It means you get some features that non-maintenance customers don't get, and you don't pay (nearly as much) for new releases when they appear. Everyone should be entitled to the fixes. Yes, I know a lot of people are claiming to have burned by the postponement of X, thinking their maintenance dollars got flushed down the crapper. Why do I keep hearing how MR0105 was top notch then? If you want to voice your opinion on the development of the software, I suggest getting into the beta testing program. The beta community must have found the new features useful, and I'm pretty sure most of them are long time users.

 

Investing your time into something a little more constructive than complaining, like learning or testing, would be a wise investment for you and your company.

 

I'll STFU now. Finally, I know...

 

Happy holidays to all, I wish all of you the best for the New Year! Peace.

[gcode]

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Even these couple of supporters if they were honest would say there are many things they dont like about X

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You are correct, there are things I don't like about X. There are also things I don't like about

V9 and there was tons of stuff I didn't like about

V8.

I have V7, V8, V9M0105 and X_MR1 istalled on this computer. My boss could care less which I use. All he wants is gcode to build parts with.

I chose to use X_MR1 and its not because I'm wearing Mastercam colored glasses.

I use X because its faster and easier. You can believe that or not as you see fit.

[Thad]

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X is gathering dust on more shelves than anyone here can imagine. Look at the who is using X and there are what 40 or so replies. That's becuase like us, people think it is a waste of time.

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We've been cutting parts with it since we got it. I don't know what your problem is.

 

Your, and other's replies, remind me of a saying. "People who say it can't be done shouldn't get in the way of those who are doing it."

 

Thad

[Die Sinker]

I tried to stay out of this discussion, but I do have some observations.

 

I don't know about the rest of you here, but I was trained as a "turn-the-handles die sinker". I wasn't even exposed to computers until 1989. I had no clue-I was not trained as an engineer or programmer before starting with MC 3.11 in 1990. But even then I was able to start drawing right away and programming some parts. When I retired in late 2003, I was using V9.1 SP2. At that time I was using solids and surfacing to make models for forgings for aerospace work. All this in a little 5 man shop producing forging dies, both precision no-draft and conventional draft dies. I DO have some experience with MasterCAM and I love it.

 

But I do have a demo disc of MCX to play around with. And frankly, I don't like it. It just does not seem intuitive to me. If I were still working and had to make chips and money for the company(which is the bottom line, isn't it?), I would probably go back to V9. The new software just seems too much like an engineer-based software, not like the machinist background language of the older versions.

 

Don't get me wrong. I believe MC will work the bugs out and sometime in the future, we will look back on this discussion with a smile. I just think that this is such a change, that the transition will be difficult for some older users of MC. Remember how associativity of geometry and toolpaths actually occurred over two sucessive versions? Maybe this should have been done here. Maybe the new interface could have been brought in with less of a shock. Maybe it was just not possible. I'm just curious, how many here are from the old "manual" days of machinists and don't have the formal training as engineers?

 

Hope some of this makes sense. Just my .02. I'm STILL going to fuss around with X because I love to learn new things. I'm just glad that I don't have to try to make money with X now and that I would still have V9 to fall back to.

[Müřlıń®]

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how many here are from the old "manual" days of machinists and don't have the formal training as engineers?

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yup...20+ years on manuals..only 10+ on CNC's

[MichaelJ]

From 1979 to 1991 manuals 1991 to now manuals and CNC.

[Guest]

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how many here are from the old "manual" days of machinists and don't have the formal training as engineers?

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Though I only program now, I went to school and learned all on manuals, '79-'83, except for our senior project which part of was NC(Tape, ya know, on a flexowriter)programming. Out of school I did a stint in the Army, then in the mid-late eighties got back into machining. I have always prided myself on being a "Machinist" not just a CNC guy. I have run everything from manual horizontal boring mills, vertical turret lathes, horizontal millers, bridgeports, grinders as well as being versed in many of the same in the CNC style.

 

As far as training goes, I come from the school of hard knocks. Nothing beyond highschool for me but that is honestly being looked at right now. I may just start in the spring towards an engineering degree. The trade looks more and more like that is the direction it is heading in the not to distant future, especially if you function only as a programmer.

 

[ 12-25-2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: jmparis ]

[mig]

merry christmas!

[Müřlıń®]

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I may just start in the spring towards an engineering degree. The trade looks more and more like that is the direction it is heading in the not to distant future

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+1

 

I came to that same conclusion after 20 some odd years of owning and operating my own shop.

 

Engineering is the last frontier for guys like us...

 

I am not sure how to get a piece of paper that shows my qualifications though Not to many went to our University of Hard Knocks

Sometimes I think it is the best school though

 

But the old saying "Money talks, BS walks" holds true in this trade.

It doesn't take but a few min to prove yourself when someone hands you a stack of prints and says "do it"....

 

Seizing the opportunity seems to be the status quo....

[Camaix]

V9 is based upon proven technology going back close to 20 years - VX is a complete rebuild using more "modern" software development technologies - for existing users including myslef V9 is at the end of the day ;reliable - VX is more powerful in the long run but it was built for the future in mind and will take some time to be as reliable

[Guest]

I saw this statement, was bored and decided to explore it.

 

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X is gathering dust on more shelves than anyone here can imagine. Look at the who is using X and there are what 40 or so replies. That's becuase like us, people think it is a waste of time.

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In the "I'm going back to V9" thread there were 23 seperate individuals who said they were either still programming in or going back to V9, several claim to be using both. In the how many are using X thread there we 32 seperate individuals saying they used X.